Comments on: The Simulated Universe http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129 Ian Lance Taylor Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:44:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.2 Comment on The Simulated Universe by: Ian Lance Taylor http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9648 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:37:30 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9648 Michael H: thanks for the pointer to transcendentally normal numbers. Michael H: thanks for the pointer to transcendentally normal numbers.

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: ncm http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9635 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 02:02:58 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9635 I should clarify why I lump all those things with Xenu; they are all examples of the "Big Idea" school of scientism. Real science starts with a huge mass of observational data, and gradually synthesizes a model to account for it all. Big Idea scientism starts with a little bit of data and an appealing myth, and then seeks out observations to confirm it, ignoring contradictions or (when that is not possible) adopting layer upon layer of epicycles to accommodate them. Einstein's General Relativity, by being right, has had the unfortunate effect of encouraging Big Idea scientism. I should clarify why I lump all those things with Xenu; they are all examples of the “Big Idea” school of scientism. Real science starts with a huge mass of observational data, and gradually synthesizes a model to account for it all. Big Idea scientism starts with a little bit of data and an appealing myth, and then seeks out observations to confirm it, ignoring contradictions or (when that is not possible) adopting layer upon layer of epicycles to accommodate them.

Einstein’s General Relativity, by being right, has had the unfortunate effect of encouraging Big Idea scientism.

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: Michael H http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9634 Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:59:27 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9634 I don't think it's quite right that every sequence of digits occur in transcendental numbers eventually. The Liouville constant, which is the number whose decimal expansion has a 1 at the (n!)th place beyond the decimal point is known to be transcendental. There are, however, things called normal numbers, which do have that property. Whether pi is normal is know as the Normality Conjecture, and was studied by the Chudnovsky brothers. As far as I know it's unproven. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1992/03/02/1992_03_02_036_TNY_CARDS_000362534 I don’t think it’s quite right that every sequence of digits occur in transcendental numbers eventually. The Liouville constant, which is the number whose decimal expansion has a 1 at the (n!)th place beyond the decimal point is known to be transcendental.
There are, however, things called normal numbers, which do have that property. Whether pi is normal is know as the Normality Conjecture, and was studied by the Chudnovsky brothers. As far as I know it’s unproven.
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1992/03/02/1992_03_02_036_TNY_CARDS_000362534

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: Ian Lance Taylor http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9625 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:43:22 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9625 I have to say that I find the ads that Google is displaying for this post to be rather interesting. Not that I plan to click on any of them. I have to say that I find the ads that Google is displaying for this post to be rather interesting. Not that I plan to click on any of them.

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: Ian Lance Taylor http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9624 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:41:49 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9624 I agree that actually believing in the simulated universe--which I'm sure nobody does--would just be a form of religious faith. But, then, I've always been interested in faith and religion. jldugger: the argument based on pi is that the notion of geometry itself is rooted in the nature of reality. We focus on just a few of the uncountable infinity of transcendental numbers because they appear to reflect something about reality. If reality were different, we would perhaps focus on different numbers. I concede that this is a difficult argument, and it may be possible to demonstrate that it is false. But I don't think it is obviously weak. The question of which base any such message would be in are sort of irrelevant. To that point, and to fche's about how any sequence will appear eventually, the message would be a very long sequence of digits, in some base, such that the sequence was both easily read and profoundly unlikely to occur so early in the sequence. It's true that that could not constitute real proof--nothing could, any more than it is possible to prove the argument from design--but it would certainly be suggestive. I agree that actually believing in the simulated universe–which I’m sure nobody does–would just be a form of religious faith. But, then, I’ve always been interested in faith and religion.

jldugger: the argument based on pi is that the notion of geometry itself is rooted in the nature of reality. We focus on just a few of the uncountable infinity of transcendental numbers because they appear to reflect something about reality. If reality were different, we would perhaps focus on different numbers. I concede that this is a difficult argument, and it may be possible to demonstrate that it is false. But I don’t think it is obviously weak.

The question of which base any such message would be in are sort of irrelevant. To that point, and to fche’s about how any sequence will appear eventually, the message would be a very long sequence of digits, in some base, such that the sequence was both easily read and profoundly unlikely to occur so early in the sequence. It’s true that that could not constitute real proof–nothing could, any more than it is possible to prove the argument from design–but it would certainly be suggestive.

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: fche http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9621 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:04:28 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9621 > Frank is right, for once. You know, even a stopped clock ... > Frank is right, for once.

You know, even a stopped clock …

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: ncm http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9611 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:07:51 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9611 Frank is right, for once. Like the Big Bang, String Theory, and the Strong Anthropomorphic Principle, the Simulated Universe notion is, in its essence, indistinguishable from religious twaddle. A principled atheist puts them in the same bin with Xenu and Moroni. This is not to say that if, for instance, JHVH-1 returns to attack the Xists and the Yetis, we won't have some reckoning to do, but it's pointless in the meantime to waste cycles on the prospect in favor of ideas that have more than 1/googol chance of being right. Frank is right, for once. Like the Big Bang, String Theory, and the Strong Anthropomorphic Principle, the Simulated Universe notion is, in its essence, indistinguishable from religious twaddle. A principled atheist puts them in the same bin with Xenu and Moroni.

This is not to say that if, for instance, JHVH-1 returns to attack the Xists and the Yetis, we won’t have some reckoning to do, but it’s pointless in the meantime to waste cycles on the prospect in favor of ideas that have more than 1/googol chance of being right.

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: jldugger http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9609 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 06:08:42 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9609 What a weak argument! Pi exists whether we are a simulation or reality -- it is entirely a construction of the mind. If pi contains a message, which base it is in? Pi is simply a ratio of direct consequence in a dimensional world, created from our own understanding of the universe around us. Their relationship can carry no specific meaning, as changing pi requires dramatically changing the rules of geometry itself. If you want a simulation argument, try equating quantum physics with rounding error in the simulation :P What a weak argument! Pi exists whether we are a simulation or reality — it is entirely a construction of the mind. If pi contains a message, which base it is in? Pi is simply a ratio of direct consequence in a dimensional world, created from our own understanding of the universe around us. Their relationship can carry no specific meaning, as changing pi requires dramatically changing the rules of geometry itself.

If you want a simulation argument, try equating quantum physics with rounding error in the simulation :P

]]> Comment on The Simulated Universe by: fche http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9606 Thu, 24 Jan 2008 02:55:49 +0000 http://www.airs.com/blog/archives/129#comment-9606 > In Carl Sagan’s novel Cosmos he suggested that there is a message buried deep in the > digits of key transcendental numbers like pi. That is a safe bet - I believe there exists a theorem that says that every finite sequence of digits will show up somewhere in a trancendental number eventually. > He suggested that this proved that the universe was designed; I think it more > likely to prove that the universe is simulated. (Well, to be simulated, it would first have to be designed.) > Most likely we are simulated. Ian, you're becoming religious! :-) > In Carl Sagan’s novel Cosmos he suggested that there is a message buried deep in the
> digits of key transcendental numbers like pi.

That is a safe bet - I believe there exists a theorem that says that every finite sequence of
digits will show up somewhere in a trancendental number eventually.

> He suggested that this proved that the universe was designed; I think it more
> likely to prove that the universe is simulated.

(Well, to be simulated, it would first have to be designed.)

> Most likely we are simulated.

Ian, you’re becoming religious! :-)

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